>>> WELL, NOW, AS WE HEARD EARLIER IN THE SHOW, USAID FUNDS GROUPS AROUND THE WORLD, PROVIDING CRITICAL SUPPORT.

IT ALSO ACTS AS A KEY SOFT POWER TOOL TO PROMOTE AMERICAN INTERESTS OVERSEAS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP AND ELON MUSK ARE NOW MOVING TO DISMANTLE THE AGENCY IN CONTROVERSIAL COST CUTTING MOVE THAT SPARKED PROTESTS OUTSIDE USAID HEADQUARTERS ON MONDAY.

SO, WHERE DOES ALL OF THIS LEAD THE USAID THOUSANDS OF EMPLOYEES AND BENEFICIARIES?

NEW YORK TIMES REPORTER KAROUN DEMIRJIAN JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO FIND OUT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THIS HAS BEEN A TUMULTUOUS DAY OR TWO FOR THE USAID, RIGHT?

WE HAD, ON MONDAY, MARCO RUBIO, THE SECRETARY OF STATE, ESSENTIALLY SAID THAT HE IS NOW TAKING OVER AS THE HEAD OF THE AGENCY.

THIS COMES AFTER ELON MUSK LAUNCHES OPERATIONS.

WE ARE GOING TO GET INTO ALL OF THAT.

I GUESS, FIRST, FOR PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY OUR OVERSEAS VIEWERS, JUST A QUICK BACKGROUND MOVE ON WHAT THE USAID IS, WHAT ITS FUNCTION IS.

>> RIGHT.

USAID, WHICH STANDS FOR THE U.S. AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT, HAS BEEN THE LEAD GOVERNMENT OPERATION THAT HAS BEEN DOING HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE AND DEVELOPMENT WORK AROUND THE GLOBE.

IT TAKES ITS FOREIGN POLICY GUIDANCE -- OR, IT TOOK ITS FOREIGN POLICY GUIDANCE FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT FOR DECADES, IT WAS ESTABLISHED IN 1961, BUT OTHERWISE WILL RUN INDEPENDENTLY IN HANDING OUT THESE GRANTS WITH PARTNER ORGANIZATIONS AROUND THE WORLD.

THIS MOVE BY RUBIO ON MONDAY EFFECTIVELY IS TAKING AWAY THAT INDEPENDENCE THAT THEY HAD, SUBSUMING USAID UNDER THE OFFICES OF STATE AND SAYING THE SECRETARY OF STATE IS GOING TO FUNCTION AS THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE DEVELOPMENTAL AID PROGRAM.

NOW, UNITED STATES WOULD NOT BE THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHERE THE FOREIGN OFFICE BASICALLY CONTROLS DEVELOPMENT AND HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

BUT, IT IS A VERY BIG CHANGE TO THE SYSTEM, AND CONGRESS IS SAYING IT IS AN ILLEGAL MOVE BECAUSE THEY CREATED THIS AGENCY FOR DEVELOPMENT, AND THEY ARE STILL FUNDING IT AS A UNIQUE ENTITY.

>> AND WHAT KIND OF AID ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

>> WE ARE TALKING ABOUT EVERYTHING FROM HEALTH PROGRAMS, TO ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMS, TO INFECTIOUS DISEASES, AND FOOD INSECURITY, AND ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING IN CORNERS OF THE WORLD THAT INCLUDE MANY CONFLICT AREAS WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE FUNNELING OF U.S. MONEY -- WHICH IS OFTEN TIMES THE MOST SIGNIFICANT POT OF MONEY TO COME IN AS DEVELOPMENT ASSISTANCE TO THESE AREAS -- IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR MAINTAINING STABILITY AND, YOU KNOW, MAINTAINING ALLIANCES EVEN IN PARTS OF THE WORLD WHERE WE HAVE A LOT OF ADVERSARIES AND DO NOT HAVE A GOOD FOOTPRINT OR RELATIONSHIP.

SO, THAT ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO EXTEND THE REACH OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS HELPFUL HAVE TWO PARTS OF THE WORLD HAS BEEN SEEN AS A VERY IMPORTANT DIPLOMATIC TOOL, EVEN IF IT'S FUNCTION IS A PARALLEL ORGANIZATION TO WHAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT DOES.

>> YOU KNOW, OFTEN, AMERICANS ARE WOEFULLY MISGUIDED WHEN THEY ARE ASKED HOW MUCH DO WE GIVE IN FOREIGN AID.

RIGHT?

THE ESTIMATE IS SORT OF, I THINK WE GIVE A QUARTER OF OUR BUDGET TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

I MEAN, HOW MUCH, IN MONEY TERMS, ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THAT USAID ACTUALLY DISTRIBUTES?

>> I BELIEVE THAT WE SAID IN FISCAL YEAR 2023, IT WAS ABOUT $38 BILLION, BUT THAT AMOUNTS TO FAR LESS THAN 1% OF THE ANNUAL BUDGET OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

I MEAN, IT PALES IN COMPARISON TO THE SIZE OF, LET'S SAY, THE DEFENSE BUDGET, WHICH IS APPROACHING $1 TRILLION, OVER $850 BILLION, AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A COUPLE TENS OF BILLIONS HERE THAT GOES INTO THE FOREIGN AID AND DEVELOPMENT ASSISTANCE, THAT HUMANITARIAN AID POOL.

SO, IT IS NOT, COMPARATIVELY SPEAKING, VERY MUCH MONEY, AT ALL.

>> SO, NOW WE HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT USAID DOES AND WHY IT IS IMPORTANT.

WHAT HAPPENED IN REALLY RAPID SUCCESSION TO USAID, WHAT WERE THE KINDS OF ORDERS, EMAILS THAT THEY WERE GETTING?

WHAT HAPPENED TO HER, BASICALLY, THE OFFICES ON MONDAY?

>> SO, THE DISSOLUTION OF USAID IS REALLY A STORY OF A RAPID DECLINE OVER THE SPAN OF ABOUT A WEEK.

ABOUT A WEEK AGO, IS WHEN DEPUTIES AND REPRESENTATIVES OF ELON MUSK AND THE DEPARTMENT GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY, THE TASK FORCE THAT THE GOVERNMENT CREATED TO CUT BACK ON SPENDING IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, IN HOPES OF BALANCING IT.

THEY ENTERED USAID, IT WAS ALL OF A SUDDEN ALL OF THE SENIOR STAFF STARTED TO BE PUT ON ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE AND FEAR STARTED TO TAKE HOLD AMONG THE WORKFORCE, THERE.

YOU SAW, THEN, AS THE WEEK PROGRESSED, THAT CONTRACTORS FOUND THAT THEY COULD NO LONGER LOG INTO THEIR EMAIL ACCOUNTS OR ACCESS THE SYSTEMS.

SO, WE ALSO SAW IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS THAT THE DIRECT CIVIL SERVANTS STARTED TO LOSE ACCESS TO THE SYSTEMS, AS WELL.

AND ALL OF THIS TOGETHER STARTED TO JUST BASICALLY FEEL LIKE AN INEVITABLE ENDGAME THAT WAS NOT GOING TO BE GOOD FOR USAID.

SO, YOU ENDED UP WITH, YOU KNOW, STAFFERS, FINDING OUT BY EMAIL -- IF THEY EVEN HAD ACCESS TO THEIR EMAIL ANYMORE -- THAT THE OFFICES WERE CLOSED AND THEY SHOULDN'T SHOW UP TO WORK.

YOU HAD NEAR ALTERCATIONS WHERE SOME PEOPLE TRY TO GET INTO THE OFFICE, AND A SMALL SUBSET DID, YOU HAVE THE SECURITY CHIEFS OVER THE WEEKEND BEING LET GO AND PUT ON SUSPENDED LEAVE, AS WELL, BECAUSE THEY TRIED TO DENY ELON MUSK'S REPRESENTATIVES ACCESS TO CLASSIFIED SPACES WHERE THEY WERE SAYING, YOU DON'T HAVE THE SECURITY CLEARANCE TO GET IN HERE.

SO, IT HAS BEEN A CLASH OF A TEST OF WILLS BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, WHETHER THE PEOPLE TASKED BY TRUMP AND MUSK TO MAKE CUTS ARE GOING TO SUCCEED, OR WHETHER THE AGENCY WOULD BE ABLE TO HOLD ON.

IT SEEMS THAT, RIGHT NOW, AT LEAST, THE AGENCY HAS -- THOSE WORKERS HAVE LOST THAT BATTLE, AND USAID HAS BEEN MOVED INTO STATE.

IT IS NOT CLEAR, YOU KNOW, WHAT, IF ANY, PROGRAMS THAT IT RAN MAY ACTUALLY SURVIVE THIS ORGANIZATIONAL TRANSMISSION.

I MEAN, LOOK, THERE HAS BEEN A WAIVER ACROSS THE GOVERNMENT FOR WHAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE LIFESAVING PROGRAMS.

THERE WAS A FREEZE THAT WENT OUT OVER ALL OF THESE PROGRAMS.

THERE IS THAT WAIVER, THERE IS A COURT ORDER THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, KEEP THE MONEY FLOWING BECAUSE IT IS A SUBJECT OF A LAWSUIT RIGHT NOW.

BUT, OVERALL, YOU KNOW, WE ARE IN A POSITION OF MASSIVE TRANSITION RIGHT NOW, AND IT IS NOT CLEAR, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT PROGRAMS ARE GOING TO SURVIVE UNDER THIS NEW REGIME.

>> WHILE THERE HAS BEEN THIS CONFUSION ON WHAT IS LEGAL AND WHAT IS NOT LEGAL, WHETHER OR NOT IT CAN BE SUBSUMED UNDER THE STATE DEPARTMENT, WHETHER THE AGENCY CAN BE CUT OFF ALTOGETHER, THE WORK IS STOPPING.

IS THAT ACCURATE?

>> SO, IT'S -- IT'S A MIXED BAG, REALLY.

THE WORK HAS STOPPED, FOR THE MOST PART.

WE ARE IN AN AREA WHERE ADDITIONALLY THERE WAS AN EXECUTIVE ORDER PUT OUT OF, DON'T PUT OUT ANY MORE OF THE GRANTS AND THE DISBURSEMENTS THAT ARE ON THE SCHEDULE.

A BUNCH OF STATES SUED, BECAUSE OF THE FRIEZES THAT WERE HAPPENING ACROSS WITH GOVERNMENT GRANTS.

NOW, THERE IS A TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER AND THE ADMINISTRATION HAS SAID, OKAY, FOR ANYTHING THAT IS AN ONGOING OR IN THE PIPELINE AWARD, YOU KNOW, WE STILL HAVE TO SHUT THAT OUT BECAUSE WE ARE IN THE STREETS RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THERE IS THIS COURT CASE THAT IS GOING ON.

SO, THAT IS ONE OF -- YOU KNOW, IT IS NOT CLEAR WHAT THAT WILL MEAN FOR THE WHOLE USAID BUDGET, WHICH IS NOW UNDER THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

RIGHT?

THERE IS ALSO THE QUESTION OF, THERE WAS THIS WAIVER THAT WAS PUT OUT TO SAY -- BECAUSE THERE WAS A BACKLASH OF, LOOK, IF WE STOP FUNDING, YOU KNOW, HIV PROGRAMS, OR CERTAIN VERY, VERY ACUTE FOOD PROGRAMS, WE ARE GOING TO CAUSE POTENTIALLY DEATH AND POTENTIALLY A LOT OF HUMAN SUFFERING, SO THERE WAS THIS WAIVER THAT WAS PUT OUT BEFORE ALL OF THE LAST STEPS OF THE DISSOLUTION OF USAID HAPPENED OVER THE WEEKEND, TO SAY, OKAY, IF IT IS A LIFESAVING PROGRAM WHERE THERE IS A DIRECT, TANGIBLE IMPACT ON KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE, THEN WE CAN KEEP THOSE PROGRAMS GOING.

BUT, IT HAS BEEN -- YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN CONFUSION.

>> ONE OF THE AREAS THAT WE HAVE BEEN SEEING USAID ACTED IN, IN RECENT MONTHS, IS THE CONFLICT IN GAZA.

AND WHAT HAS HAPPENED, FOR EXAMPLE, TWO PROJECTS ON THE GROUND, THERE?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

IT HAS BEEN PHYSICAL.

IT ALSO IS A CRITICAL COMPONENT TO KEEPING THE CEASE-FIRE GOING.

THE FLOW OF HUMANITARIAN AID INTO GAZA, AND THE UNITED STATES BEING ONE OF THE MAJOR BACKERS OF THAT, AND A GUARANTOR OF THE CEASE-FIRE, AS WELL, THAT IS CRITICAL TO KEEPING THAT HUMMING ALONG AND NOT DESCENDING BACK INTO A WAR.

LISTEN, AT THIS POINT, THE GAZA MISSION -- WHICH IS BASED IN JERUSALEM -- HAS FACED THE SAME HITS AS MANY OF THE OTHER MISSIONS ACROSS THE GLOBE IN CONFLICT AREAS.

THEY HAVE LOST THEIR CONTRACTORS, SOME DIRECTED STAFF ARE HAVING DIFFICULTY.

I MEAN, LOOK, THERE HAS BEEN A PUSH OVER THE LAST SEVERAL HOURS, EVEN, TO TRY TO GET ACCESS BACK FOR SOME OF THESE PEOPLE, TO BRING PEOPLE BACK ONLINE, SO IT ALL IS A VERY MUCH LIVING IN REAL-TIME SORT OF TRANSITIONAL SITUATION.

BUT, THE STAFFING OF THAT OFFICE, LIKE EVERY OTHER OFFICE, HAS TAKEN A HIT AND THAT CAN AFFECT THE CAPACITY BECAUSE THERE IS NO MORE WORK TO BE DONE BY FEWER PEOPLE THAT HAVE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, AND SO EVERYBODY IS VERY NERVOUS ABOUT WHAT THAT MIGHT LOOK LIKE, AND WILL THAT ACTUALLY AFFECT HOW MUCH AID IS ACTUALLY ABLE TO GET TO THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA?

>> ONE OF THE CONCERNS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS EXPRESSED, REPEATEDLY, IS THAT WE NEED OTHER COUNTRIES TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND FILL THE GAP.

WE CAN'T BE EVERYTHING, TO EVERYONE, ALL THE TIME.

NOW, IS THERE ANY INDICATION THAT TURNING OFF THIS SPIGOT, AS QUICKLY AS TURNING OFF USAID, WILL AUTOMATICALLY GENERATE THAT RESPONSE?

IS THERE ANYTHING, HISTORICALLY, TO SAY, WELL, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE BACK AWAY?

>> WELL, HARI, YOU ARE TESTING MY HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE ON THAT ONE, BUT I WILL JUST SAY THIS SORT OF SHOCK TO THE INTERNATIONAL SYSTEM IS PROBABLY NOT GOING TO SEE AN IMMEDIATE OPENING OF EVERYONE ELSE'S TREASURY DEPARTMENTS JUST SPILLING MONEY IN TO COMPLETELY MAKE UP THAT SHORTFALL.

THAT IS JUST COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC.

GOVERNMENT BUDGETS DON'T WORK THAT WAY.

OUR GOVERNMENT BUDGETING PROCESS DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

WE SEE CONGRESS BICKERING OVER EVERY PENNY THAT THEY SPEND, IN MANY WAYS.

SO, IT IS A -- LOOK, MANY PEOPLE HAVE EXPRESSED THIS CONCERN THAT EVEN IF YOU CAN RECOVER, EITHER BECAUSE UNITED STATES DECIDES, THESE PROGRAMS ARE GREAT, WE ARE JUST GOING TO RUN THEM OUT OF STATE NOW, IT IS ORGANIZATIONALLY DIFFERENT BUT THE MONEY WILL START FLOWING AND EVERYBODY CAN GET UP AND RUNNING, OR THE COUNTRIES STEP INTO THE BREACH AND THEY FILL IT WITH WHATEVER THEY ARE DOING.

IT WILL TAKE TOO MUCH TIME TO BE ABLE TO ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN SMOOTHLY.

THE CONTRACTORS, THE NGOs THEY WILL HAVE TO SHUT DOWN, THE STAFF THEY WILL HAVE TO LAY OFF, THE LAST IN ACTUALLY PROVIDING SOME OF THE ASSISTANCE TO PEOPLE MEANS THAT YOU WILL LOSE THE KNOW-HOW OF PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW TO DO THIS, YOU WILL LOSE THE ORGANIZATIONAL EXPERIENCE AND HAVE TO BUILD IT FROM THE GROUND UP AND YOU WILL LOSE THE TRUST OF THE POPULATIONS THAT ARE SERVED BECAUSE, AGAIN, YOU HAVE A GAP OF SEVERAL WEEKS OR SEVERAL MONTHS BEFORE YOU CAN GET THINGS GOING AGAIN, THAT IS THINGS FALLING APART AND BRINGING THINGS BACK UP ONLINE, AND THAT IS A BLACKFOOT POSITION, TAKES MORE TIME, MORE EFFORT, AND MORE REBUILDING OF THAT, YOU KNOW, THE HANDSHAKE RELATIONSHIP OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE BEING SERVED.

AND SOMETIMES, THE GOVERNMENTS THAT ARE BEING POTENTIALLY HOSTILE TO THE IDEA OF, YOU KNOW, AMERICANS OR OTHERS COMING IN AND HAVING TO GET THAT DIPLOMATIC ABILITY TO COME IN UP AND RUNNING.

AGAIN, IN CONFLICT AREAS, I HAVE HAD PEOPLE TELL ME, LOOK, WHEN THE COMMUNITIES TRUST THE AID WORKERS THAN THOSE PEOPLE ARE MORE LIKELY TO LET THE AID WORKERS FUNCTION.

AND IF THERE IS A LAPSE IN THAT, OR FOR SOME REASON THE AGENCIES ARE SEEN AS UNRELIABLE, IT BECOMES MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO START UP OPERATIONS AND GET GOING AGAIN.

>> WHAT ARE THE EMPLOYEES THAT YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO SAYING ABOUT ESPECIALLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS?

WHETHER THEIR ACCESS HAS BEEN DENIED, AND NOW THERE IS A NEW GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY HAVEN'T BEEN VETTED BY CONGRESS, WHO AREN'T NECESSARILY POLITICAL APPOINTEES, BUT HAVE ACCESS TO ALL OF THEIR INFORMATION?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, LOOK, THE USAID EMPLOYEES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE TALKING RIGHT NOW, BUT THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN INFORMING US OF WHAT IS GOING ON, IT IS A MIXED BAG.

SOME OF THEM ARE VERY AFRAID OF WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THEMSELVES AND FOR THE WORLD.

SOME OF THEM ARE VERY IRATE RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE THEY ARE SAYING, LOOK, WE ARE JUST CIVIL SERVANTS, AND HERE IS ELON MUSK AND PEOPLE CALLING US EVIL, THINK WE ARE A CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION DOING TERRIBLE THINGS, BUT IT IS A MIXED BAG.

OBVIOUSLY, PEOPLE WHO DO THAT WORK REALLY BELIEVE IN IT.

THEY ARE -- YOU KNOW, THERE IS A WORKFORCE IN D.C., THERE IS A WORKFORCE AROUND THE GLOBE WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE KIND OF STRANDED RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THEY CAN'T EVEN -- THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW IF THEY WILL BE ABLE TO GET THEIR TRAVEL TO THE UNITED STATES FUNDED, OR WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THEY CAN'T ACCESS ANY OF THEIR SYSTEMS.

WHETHER THEY ARE CONTRACTORS, MORE THAN CONTRACTORS, DIRECT HIRES, TOO.

IT IS A LOT OF CONFUSION, A LOT OF ANGER, AND A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, PRELIMINARY GRIEF, I GUESS, BECAUSE I THINK THAT EVERYBODY, RIGHT NOW, GIVEN THE EXPERIENCE THEY HAVE HAD OVER THE LAST WEEK, DOES NOT HAVE A LOT OF CONFIDENCE THAT THE CHANGEOVER TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND THE LEADERSHIP OF MARCO RUBIO IS GOING TO SAVE THE PROGRAMS THAT THEY ARE AFRAID NOW ARE GOING TO BE PERMANENTLY ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK.

AND, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT RADIANT EFFECT THAT HAS FOR THE UNITED STATES AND FOR THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN WORKING, FOR YEARS AND YEARS, TO SUPPORT, AS WELL.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE IN THE FIELD HAVE CLOSE RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE COMMUNITIES THEY SERVE, PEOPLE IN D.C. ARE DOING SUPPORT WORK FOR THOSE PROGRAMS AND THERE IS A LOT OF FEAR.

JUST GENERALLY SPEAKING, FOR THEMSELVES AND FOR THE WORK.

BUT, THE LACK OF WORK, WHAT THAT WILL MEAN GLOBALLY.

>> HAS THERE BEEN ANY RESPONSE FROM THE CORNERS OF CONGRESS?

EVEN REPUBLICANS WHO SUPPORT HUMANITARIAN AID?

OR, THE WORK USAID HAS DONE?

>> LOOK, SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO WAS, JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, ONE OF THOSE REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS THAT HAD A FAIRLY GOOD TRACK RECORD OF UNDERSTANDING THE IMPORTANCE OF FOREIGN AID.

THE MOST BACKLASH YOU HAVE HEARD FROM LAWMAKERS HAS BEEN FROM DEMOCRATS.

THEY ARE FURIOUS.

THEY ARE UPSET.

THEY ARE SAYING, THIS IS ILLEGAL, THIS IS A POWER GRAB.

WE CREATED USAID, WE CONTINUE TO FUND IT AS A UNIQUE ENTITY.

YOU CAN'T JUST SAY IT DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE OR SUBSUME IT WITHIN STATE.

AND FRANKLY, THEY HAVE GOTTEN SOME SUPPORT FROM THAT FROM OUTSIDERS, AS WELL.

THE REPUBLICANS ARE IN A REALLY AWKWARD SPOT.

NOT ALL OF THEM ARE BACK IN WASHINGTON, D.C., YET.

OR, WERE BACK IN WASHINGTON, D.C. AT THE POINT OF TIME THINGS STARTED TO HAPPEN.

THEY HAVE BEEN, MORE OR LESS, QUIET ABOUT WHAT THEY THINK BECAUSE IT IS A REALLY AWKWARD SPOT FOR THEM TO BE IN, BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT THAT THEY SUPPORTED, AND THIS POSITION THEY HAVE TAKEN, THINKING RUBIO WILL DO A GOOD JOB AND BELIEVING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO CLEAN UP ANY SORTS OF PROBLEMS THERE ARE ACROSS THE GOVERNMENT, INCLUDING IN USAID, AND THEN KIND OF STARING WHAT MIGHT BE A FULL CHOP OF THE ENTIRE PROGRAM, AND ALL OF ITS BUDGETS.

SO, I THINK THEY ARE TRYING TO WAIT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS, BECAUSE THEY ARE IN A POLITICALLY VERY, VERY STRANGE POSITION.

>> OF COURSE, THERE IS THE HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND IN THE WAKE OF A DISASTER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT I THINK THERE IS ALSO A CONSEQUENCE IN THAT THIS IS ALSO PART OF AMERICAN SOFT POWER, WE ARE IN PLACES THAT OTHER COUNTRIES ARE NOT.

WHEN WE LEAVE, WHAT HAPPENS?

>> THAT IS THE BIG QUESTION RIGHT NOW, RIGHT?

THERE ARE INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS BUT ALSO DO WORK IN VARIOUS PARTS OF THE WORLD, BUT ALSO, REMEMBER, LET'S TAKE HEALTH ASSISTANCE, FOR ONE EXAMPLE.

RIGHT?

THE UNITED STATES HAS DISASSOCIATED ITSELF FROM THE W.H.O., SO THAT MEANS THE INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION HAS LESS MONEY TO GO INTO THOSE PARTS OF THE WORLD, NOW THAT THE UNITED STATES IS PULLING BACK.

OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE OTHER SORTS OF, YOU KNOW, BENEVOLENT AID PROGRAMS, BUT THE UNITED STATES HAS A HUGE BUDGET.

AND THE OTHER THING THAT IS IMPORTANT TO REALIZE, THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE RAISING AS A CONCERN RIGHT NOW, IS THINK ABOUT THE OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD THAT HAVE THE FINANCIAL ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO REACH OUT INTO VARIOUS CORNERS OF THE GLOBE, TO WIELD INFLUENCE, OR TO JUST GIVE ASSISTANCE AND TRY TO MAKE ALLIANCES.

THOSE ARE COUNTRIES THAT THE UNITED STATES CONSIDERS ADVERSARIES, FOR THE MOST PART.

CHINA HAS A BIG REACH INTO THESE AREAS.

RUSSIA, AS WELL, HAS REACHED PARTS OF THE UNDERDEVELOPED WORLD, TO TRY TO HAVE INFLUENCE IN THOSE AREAS.

THE COMPLAINT, AND THE CRITICISM OF THIS, FOR MOSTLY DEMOCRATS, BUT ALSO LOTS OF AID WORKERS AND OTHERS, AS WELL, IS THAT IF THE UNITED STATES PULLS BACK, OTHER PEOPLE ARE GOING TO FILL THAT VOID AND IT WILL BE COUNTRIES THAT WE ALREADY HAVE AN ISSUE WITH.

SO, IF WE PULL BACK ON THE SOFT POWER, ON THESE WAYS OF, YOU KNOW, DOING POSITIVE INFLUENCE BY HELPING PEOPLE AND LIFTING COMMUNITIES UP, THEN THE IDEA IS GOING TO BE CHINA MOVES IN, AND WE START TO BE IN RETREAT AND WE START TO LOSE OUR FOOTPRINT IN THE WORLD, LOSE OUR ALLIANCES, LOSE OUR ABILITY TO INFLUENCE PEOPLE IN COUNTRIES WHERE MAYBE WE DON'T HAVE THE MOST PERFECT DIPLOMATIC RELATIONSHIP, BUT WE ARE HOPING FOR A TURNAROUND.

THAT SORT OF GROUND-UP INFLUENCE IS GONE, AND POTENTIALLY LOST TO OTHERS WHO WOULD WISH THE UNITED STATES VARYING DEGREES OF HARM, BASICALLY.

>> KAROUN DEMIRJIAN, NEW YORK TIMES REPORTER, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.